Mònica Terribas
10 June 2019
Click below on "Més informació" if need be, for Catalan transcript and English translation (by MS)
ÀUDIO: https://www.ccma.cat/catradio/alacarta/el-mati-de-catalunya-radio/els-sintetitzadors-quatre-mesos-de-judici-i-a-punt-per-al-vist-per-a-sentencia/audio/1042478/
*At the end of the post, for iPad and mobile phone readers, I have reproduced the English text removed from column format.
| El Nadal passat pocs s'atrevien a fer pronòstics de quan podia durar però ja som al final: demà comença l'últim episodi del judici al Tribunal Suprem del procés independentista de la tardor del 2017 tot i que per a la sentència encara haurem d'esperar a la tardor... És un judici històric, sens dubte, el més important de la democràcia espanyola. |
Last Christmas few dared to make predictions of
how long it could last but we have reached the end: the last
episode of the trial in the Supreme Court of the independence
process of Autumn 2017 begins tomorrow, although for the sentence
we will still have to wait until this autumn... It is a historic
judgment, undoubtedly the most important of the Spanish democracy.
|
| Fa uns dies, l'advocat Andreu Van den Eynde ens reconeixia que el president de la sala, Manuel Marchena, havia dirigit els tempos amb mà de ferro, encara que pel camí -afegia- els acusats havien perdut alguns drets. |
A few days ago, lawyer Andreu Van den Eynde
recognized that the president of the chamber, Manuel Marchena, had
led the tempo with an iron fist, although on the way - he added -
the defendants had lost some of their rights.
|
| Dani Gómez, Domènec Subirà, bon dia! En quatre mesos, des del 12 de febrer fins ara, Marchena ha completat tota la part del judici oral... |
Dani Gómez, Domènec Subirà, good morning! In
four months, from March 12 until now, Marchena has completed the
whole of the oral proceedings...
|
| DG: Sí, ha passat per les proves testificals -els testimonis-, les pericials i les documentals, amb la controvertida exhibició dels vídeos de l'1 d'octubre. |
DG: Yes, he has gone through the testimonial tests
- the witnesses -, the experts and the documentaries, with the
controversial exhibition of the October 1 videos.
|
| DS: La setmana passada, les acusacions, Fiscalia, Advocacia de l'Estat i l'acusació popular de l'extrema dreta de Vox, van exposar els seus informes finals amb els arguments per mantenir els càrrecs contra les dotze persones encausades. |
DS: Last week, the prosecution - the prosecutor's
office, the state lawyers’ office and the “popular
prosecutor”, the extreme right party Vox -, presented their
final reports with the arguments to uphold the charges against the
twelve people in charge.
|
| Demà tornem a ser a Madrid perquè tocarà a les defenses exposar els seus arguments definitius, amb petició d'absolució inclosa. I després podran fer el seu al·legat final els acusats. Hi ha dues sessions previstes, demà dimarts i dimecres, i si calgués s'habilitaria també dijous. |
Tomorrow we return to Madrid because it will be
the defence counsels’ turn to expound on their definitive
arguments, with a request for acquittal included. And then the
defendants will have the opportunity to make their final plea.
There are two scheduled sessions: tomorrow Tuesday, and Wednesday,
and if necessary, Thursday would also be added.
|
| Per això avui ens sembla oportú SINTETITZAR aquests quatre mesos, els moments, les imatges, el més destacat del que s'ha dit des del febrer... |
That is why today it seems timely to SUMMARISE
these four months, the moments, the images, the highlights of what
has been said since February...
|
| DG: La fase testifical va començar amb la compareixença dels principals actors de govern. I amb ells la principal controvèrsia en clau política: fins on podia arribar el diàleg i on va començar la via unilateral? Versions d'Artur Mas i Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría davant del Tribunal Suprem... |
DG: The testifical phase, the witnesses, began
with the appearance of the main government actors. And with them
the main controversy in the political key: how far could dialogue
be reached and where did the unilateral journey begin? Versions of
Rt. Hon. Artur Mas and [former deputy primer minister] Soraya
Sáenz de Santamaría before the Supreme Court...
|
| TALL 2:20-2:53 |
CUT 2:20-2:53
|
Mas: Yo siempre escuché la voluntad de acordar los términos de
esereferéndum con el Gobierno español. Siempre. Lo escuché
también en declaraciones públicas del president Puigdemont
cuando visitaba al presidente Rajoy en la Moncloa y la ofrecía
pactar la fecha la pregunta y las condiciones anteriores y
posteriores del referendo.
|
Mas: I always heard the willingness to reach agreement on the
terms of this referendum with the Spanish Government. Always. I
also heard it in public statements by President Puigdemont when he
visited prime minister Rajoy in the Moncloa [palace, in Madrid]
and offered to reach agreement on the date of the question and the
conditions before and after the referendum.
|
Sáenz de
Santamaría: El Gobierno de la Nación no puede disponer sobre la
soberanía y sobre la unidad del territorio nacional. Ni con el
Señor Junqueras ni con nadie puedo hablar de convocar un
referendum de autodeterminacion en nuestro país.
|
Sáenz
de Santamaría: The Government of the Nation cannot play around
with the sovereignty and the unity of the national territory.
Neither with Mr. Junqueras nor with anyone can I talk about
calling a referendum of self-determination in our country.
|
| DS: Però més enllà de les posicions oficials, un interrogant del judici era quins contactes hi havia hagut entre bambolines l'estiu i la tardor del 2017, i fins i tot els dies previs a la declaració d'independència. I aquí el lehendakari Iñigo Urkullu, que va fer de mitjancer, tenia un record i Mariano Rajoy, un altre... |
DS: But beyond the official positions, a question
mark surrounding the trial was what contacts there had been behind
the scenes in the summer and autumn of 2017, and even in the days
before the declaration of independence. And here Lehendakari
[Basque president] Iñigo Urkullu, who acted as mediator, had one
recollection, and [primer minister] Mariano Rajoy had another...
|
| TALL 3:10-3:55 |
CUT 3:10-3:55
|
Defensa: ¿Vd personalmente atendió al Señor Urkullu?
|
Defence: Did you personally meet Sr. Urkullu?
|
Rajoy:
Pues no sé si... desde luego, y puestos a tal, también me llamó
el Señor Ortuza. Quizá personalmente haya hablado personalmente
con el Señor Urkullu.
|
Rajoy:
Well, I do not know if... of course, and while we are on the
subject, Sr. Ortuza also called me. Maybe I did speak with Mr.
Urkullu personally.
|
Defensa:
Señor Rajoy, no quiero ponerle en un problema.
|
Defence:
Mr. Rajoy, I do not want to put you in a fix.
|
Marchena: Es muy sencillo...
|
Marchena: It's very simple...
|
Rajoy: O sea, ahí no ha habido ningún mediador de nada. A mi me
llamó mucha gente pero claro tiene usted que entender que es muy
difícil recordar sí hablé personalmente, hable por teléfono o
hablé a través de mensajes.
|
Rajoy: That is, there was no kind of mediator of any sort. Many
people called me, but of course you have to understand that it is
very difficult to remember if I spoke to them personally, on the
phone or through messages.
|
Urkullu: Mantuve la reunión con el presidente del Gobierno
español el 19 de julio por un espacio de 2 horas. Previamente a
ello el presidente español que se puso en comunicación conmigo
para fijar la agenda posible. A partir de ese momento ya fueron
muchas las conversaciones, muchas las comunicaciones mantenidas
con diversas personas...
|
Urkullu: I had the meeting with the Spanish Prime Minister on July
19 for a space of two hours. Prior to that, the Spanish prime
minister contacted me to set the possible agenda. From that moment
on there were many conversations, many communications with various
people...
|
| DG: Preguntat pel contingut de les converses amb el president basc, Rajoy tampoc va donar gaires detalls... |
DG: Asked about the content of the talks with the
Basque president, nor did Rajoy give many details...
|
| TALL 4:01-4:08 |
CUT 4:01-4:08
|
Rajoy: La
propuesta más importante que hice es que se dejara de vulnerar la
Constitución. Esta fue la propuesta más importante.
|
Rajoy:
The most important proposal I made was to stop violating the
Constitution. This was the most important proposal.
|
| DS: Atenció en canvi, a les percepcions que tenia Urkullu aquells dies d'octubre... |
DS: Note, however, the perceptions that Urkullu
had in those days of October...
|
| TALL 4:13-4:33 |
CUT 4:13-4:33
|
Urkullu: Tuve mi intuición de cuál sería la disposición del
presidente del Gobierno español, que no era muy dado a la
aplicación del artículo 155 realmente.
|
Urkullu:
I had my intuition of what the disposition of the president of the
Spanish Government, would be, for he really was not keen on the
application of Article 155.
|
Acusación:
¿Cuál era la respuesta del Sr. Puigdemont?
|
Prosecution:
What was Mr. Puigdemont's response?
|
Urkullu: En
modo alguno él tenía deseo de proceder a la declaracón
unilateral de independencia.
|
Urkullu:
In no way at all did he wish to proceed with the unilateral
declaration of independence.
|
| L'acusació de rebel·lió basa els seus arguments en la convergència de quatre actors: el Parlament, la Generalitat, els Mossos d'Esquadra i les entitats socials. |
The charge of
rebellion bases its arguments on the convergence of four actors:
the Parliament, the Generalitat, the Mossos d'Esquadra and the
social organizations.
|
| DG: Al govern a més se l'acusa de malversació. I aquí l'ex-ministre Cristóbal Montoro era un dels testimonis més esperats... |
DG: The
government is also accused of embezzlement. And here ex-minister
Cristóbal Montoro was one of the most eagerly expected
witnesses...
|
| TALL 4:50-4:56 |
CUT 4:50-4:56
|
Montoro:
Todos los fondos estaban controlados, hasta el punto que
sustituímos a la propia administración autonómica.
|
Montoro:
All the funds were controlled, to the point that we replaced the
autonomous administration itself.
|
| DS: No era la primera vegada que feia aquesta declaració, així contundent. Però aquesta vegada el fiscal li arrancava un matís: |
DS: It was
not the first time that this statement was made this strongly. But
this time the prosecutor prized out a nuance:
|
| TALL 5:03-5:14 |
CUT 5:03-5:14
|
Montoro: La
autoridad convocante no tenía presupuesto.
|
Montoro:
The convening authority did not have a budget.
|
Fiscal:
¿Esto excluye la posibilidad de que haya actuaciones irregulares
para la financiación del referéndum, o engañosas o
fraudulentas?
|
Fiscal:
Does this exclude the possibility of irregular actions for the
funding of the referendum, or deceptive ones, or fraudulent ones?
|
Montoro:
No, esto no lo podemos nunca excluir.
|
Montoro:
No, we can never rule that out.
|
| La discussió sobre la veracitat i la legalitat dels fets evidentment ha estat un dels eixos del judici, i a això s'han cenyit algunes de les defenses i part dels testimonis. |
The discussion about the accuracy and legality of
the facts has evidently been one of the cornerstones of the trial,
and some of the defence counsels and part of the testimonies
concentrated on this.
|
| DG: L'actual president del Parlament, Roger Torrent, per exemple, defensava l'actuació de la seva predecessora, Carme Forcadell... |
DG: The current Speaker of the Parliament, Roger
Torrent, for example, defended the action of his predecessor,
Carme Forcadell...
|
| TALL 5:29-5:47 |
CUT 5:29-5:47
|
No
hay propuestas de grupos parlamentarios que se puedan censurar.
Nunca hacemos censurado, nunca las han censurado los presidentes
que me han precedido, particularmente tampoco nunca las ha
censurado la president Forcadell, de hecho yo en su lugar hubiera
hecho exactamente lo mismo.
|
There
are no proposals by parliamentary groups that can be censored. We
have never censored, none of the Speakers who have preceded me you
have ever censored them, and in particular Speaker Forcadell never
censored them; in fact, had I been in her place, I would have done
exactly the same thing.
|
| DS: Però un altra estratègia que també ha sobresortit és la de reivindicar els drets dels encausats i de la població a la qual representaven. El debat de la legitimitat versus la legalitat. Aquí encaixa, entre d'altres, el testimoni d'Ada Colau que, com ella mateixa aclaria, parteix de la discrepància amb l'independentisme... |
DS: But another strategy that has also stuck out
is that of vindicating the rights of the defendants and of the
population they represented. The debate of legitimacy versus
legality. Here fits, among others, the testimony of [Barcelona
mayor] Ada Colau, who, as she herself made clear, starts with the
discrepancy with the independence movement...
|
| TALL 6:02-6:15 |
CUT 6:02-6:15
|
A mi se me parte el alma, Señoría, de ver que aquí el Sr.
Cuixart esté hoy aquí en situación de prisión preventiva como
el resto de acusados, con quienes puedo tener discrepancias
políticas, però si por el uno de octubre estamos aquí
deberíamos estar millones de personas.
|
Ada Colau: It
breaks my heart, Your Honour, to see that Mr. Cuixart is here
today in pretrial detention like the rest of the defendants, with
whom I may have political disagreements, but if for October 1 we
are here, there should be millions of people in the dock.
|
| DG: I encara una reivindicació més, aquesta sobre el judici mateix. Les defenses havien demanat que es vetés la participació del partit d'extrema dreta Vox al judici, però no se'n van sortir. Els exdiputats de la CUP Antonio Baños i Eulàlia Reguant van ser més expeditius quan els va tocar testificar... |
DG: And yet another claim, this one on the trial
itself. The defence had called for the participation of the far
right Vox party in the trial to be vetoed, but they did not get
they way. Former CUP MPs Antonio Baños and Eulàlia Reguant were
more expeditious when it was their turn to testify...
|
| TALL 6:31-6:51 |
CUT 6:31-6:51
|
Baños: Si me
permite, Señoría, yo me negaré a contestar...
|
Baños:
If you allow me, Your Honour, I will refuse to answer...
|
Marchena: No,
no puede.
|
Marchena:
No, you can’t.
|
Baños: Que
sí, si que puedo.
|
Baños:
Yes, yes I can.
|
Marchena:
No...
|
Marchena:
No...
|
Baños:
Bueno, pues no pienso contestar las preguntas que me haga...
|
Baños:
Well, I dont’ intend to answer the questions they ask me...
|
Marchena: No,
no, escuche, escuche, escúcheme.
|
Marchena:
No, no, listen, listen, listen to me.
|
Reguant:
Frente a la extrema derecha, frenta a un partido machista y
xenófobo, no aceptaré contestar las preguntas, asumiendo las
consecuencias.
|
Reguant:
In front of the extreme right, in front of a sexist and xenophobic
party, I will not accept to answer the questions, and I accept the
consequences.
|
| Resultat d'aquest desacatament, el Suprem els ha imposat una multa de 2.500 euros que, de moment, NO s'ha pagat. |
As a result of this contempt of court, the Supreme
Court issued a 2,500 euros fine which, to date, has not been paid.
|
| Entrem en els testimonis de la violència, sens dubte el gruix del judici i el que més hores i més controvèrsia ha ocupat. Els escenaris més analitzats durant aquests quatre mesos han estat el de la concentració del 20 de setembre davant la conselleria d'Economia i el de l'1 d'octubre als centres de votació arreu del país. |
Let us move on to the witnesses on violence, no
doubt the bulk of the trial and what has taken up most time and
most controversy. The scenarios most analyzed during these four
months were the one of the concentration on September 20thoutside
the Ministry of Economy and the one on October 1 at
the polling stations throughout the country.
|
| DS: Pel que fa a l'1 d'octubre, un testimoni destacat que va corroborar el relat de l'acusació, va ser el de l'ex-delegat del Govern a Catalunya la tardor del 2017, Enric Millo, sobretot amb un exemple que es va fer viral... |
DS: With regard to October 1, a prominent
testimony that corroborated the story of the prosecution was that
of the former delegate of the [Spanish] Government in Catalonia in
autumn 2017, Enric Millo, especially with an example that went
viral...
|
TALL 7:25-7:37
|
CUT 7:25-7:37
|
Millo:
Un agente me explicó que le había caído en la trampa del fairy.
Pregunté qué es esto, ¿no? En verter detergente en la entrada
de algunos colegios para que, cuando los policías entraran,
patinaran, caían al suelo y luego les pateaban en la cabeza.
|
Millo:
An agent explained to me that he had fallen into the Fairy trap. I
asked what was that, you know? It involved pouring detergent at
the entrance of some schools so that, when the police entered,
they slipped, fell to the ground and then their heads got kicked.
|
| DG: Del 20 de setembre, un dels testimonis més polèmics de l'acusació ha estat el de Montserrat del Toro, la secretària judicial del Jutjat número 13 de Barcelona, que aquell dia va dirigir l'escorcoll a la Conselleria d'Economia, envoltada per milers de persones... |
DG: As to September 20, one of the most
controversial testimonies of the prosecution was been that of
Montserrat del Toro, the court secretary of Barcelona Court No.
13, who on that day led the search party in the Department of
Economy, surrounded by thousands of people...
|
| TALL 7:52-8:08 |
CUT 7:52-8:08
|
Toro: Tenía
evidentement como persona, como humano, que velar por mi
integridad física porque realmente tenía miedo y tambén era mi
obligación profesional asegurarme que el fruto del trabajo de 17
horas de registro no se perdieran ni se quedarán olvidadas...
|
Toro:
I had evidently, as a person, as a human being, to watch over my
physical integrity because I was really afraid and it was also my
professional obligation to make sure that the fruit of the work of
17 hours of searches was not lost or forgotten...
|
| DS: La por que ella esmenta, o la seva sortida pel terrat del Departament, han fet córrer molta tinta, tanta com la descripció del perquè passava tot això a Catalunya aquella tardor... |
DS: The fear she mentions, or her departure across
a Department terrace, spilled a lot of ink, at least as the
description of why this happened in Catalonia that autumn...
|
| TALL 8:19-8:42 |
CUT 8:19-8:42
|
Nos
poníamos en un clima que podríamos calificar por objetivos, en
un clima que podríamos calificar por el número de acciones, en
un clima que podríamos calificar por abstención, dónde se
producían claramente insurreccional. Aquello literalmente era un
polvorín. Aquellos días sabíamos que esa situación cualquier
incidente pequeño podría derivar en una escalada
incontrolable... y afortunadamente no fue así.
|
Baena: We
got into a climate that we could qualify by objectives, in a
climate that we could qualify by the number of actions, in a
climate that we could qualify by abstention, where they were
happening, as clearly insurrectional. It was literally a powder
keg. Those days we knew that in that situation any small incident
could lead to an uncontrollable escalation... and fortunately that
did not happen.
|
| Era el coronel de la Guàrdia Civil José Daniel Baena, cap dels agents judicials del cos a Catalunya amb una explicació que donava cobertura i justificació global a tota actuació policial, conscient de les crítiques que havien generat. |
This was the Civil Guard Colonel, José Daniel
Baena, chief of the body's court agents in Catalonia, with an
explanation that provided comprehensive coverage and justification
to all police action, aware of the criticism they had generated.
|
| DS: Baena, investigat per les seves crítiques i insults a les xarxes contra independentistes i periodistes, insistia a descriure un clima, un terme que el fiscal Jaime Moreno va fer seu després quan va mostrar els vídeos de la suposada violència, amb imatges que, per cert, no va saber ubicar geogràficament... |
DS: Baena, who is being investigated for his
criticisms and insults in the social networks against independence
supporters and journalists, insisted on describing a climate, a
term that prosecutor Jaime Moreno took on afterwards when he
showed the videos of alleged violence, with images that,
incidentally, he could not locate geographically...
|
| TALL 9:15-9:25 | CUT 9:15-9:25 |
Moreno:
Esta pidiendo al señor fiscal una identificación que en nada
viene a añadir. En todo caso lo que se está señalando es que
fue un clima en todos los colegios en todos los lugares.
|
Moreno:
You are asking the prosecutor for an identification that does not
add anything. In any case what is being pointed out is that it was
a climate in all the schools in all the places.
|
| DG: Els informes sobre els fets d'aquella tardor elaborats pel coronel Baena per al jutjat d'instrucció número 13 són els que han fonamentat la instrucció del Suprem. Coherent amb aquesta línia declarava al Suprem l'exministre de l'Interior, Juan Ignacio Zoido... |
DG: The reports on the events of that autumn
written by Colonel Baena for Investigating Court No. 13 are those
on which the investigation of the Supreme Court was based.
Consistent with this line, former Interior Minister Juan Ignacio
Zoido testified before the Supreme Court...
|
| TALL 9:39-9:50 |
CUT 9:39-9:50
|
Zoido:
Eso lo de exceso no lo comparto. Creo que fue una actuación
proporcionada dada la circunstancias que concurrieron en ese, en
ese día.
|
Zoido:
I do not agree that they acted excessively. I think it was a
proportionate action given the circumstances that concurred on
that, on that day.
|
| El clima insurreccional és un dels arguments de l'acusació per justificar l'actuació dels cossos de seguretat espanyols. L'altre és la passivitat dels Mossos d'Esquadra, un instrument al servei de la rebel·lió, segons els fiscals. |
The insurrectionist climate is one of the
arguments of the prosecution to justify the action of the Spanish
security forces. The other is the passivity of the Mossos
d'Esquadra, an instrument at the service of the rebellion
according to the prosecutors.
|
| DS: La tesi la va plantejar la fiscalia a les conclusions provisionals i la va mantenir a les conclusions definitives, després de quatre mesos de judici, de sentir gairebé 500 testimonis i de veure una desena d'hores de vídeos. |
DS: The thesis was proposed by the public
prosecutor in his provisional conclusions and was kept in the
final conclusions, after four months of trial, almost 500
testimonials and having seen a dozen hours of videos.
|
| DG: Al Tribunal li toca ara valorar explicacions com la del Major dels Mossos, Josep Lluís Trapero, preguntat pel mateix Manuel Marchena sobre aquesta suposada submissió al govern independentista... |
DG: The Court now has to evaluate explanations
such as that of the then head of the Mossos, Josep Lluís Trapero,
personally asked by Manuel Marchena about their purported
submission to the pro-independence government...
|
| TALL 10:30-10:59 |
CUT 10:30-10:59
|
Marchena:
Sr. Trapero, antes de marcharse, ¿exactamente qué mensaje quiere
usted transmitir a esos responsables políticos y qué respuesta
obtiene?
|
Marchena:
Mr. Trapero, before you leave, exactly what message did you want
to convey to those political leaders and what answer did you get?
|
Trapero:
el referendo, que allí vamos como cúpula del cuerpo y emplazamos
a un cumplimiento de las órdenes judiciales. Les dijimos que
evidentemente nosotros las íbamos a cumplir, que estaban
equivocados con nosotros. Les dijimos que el cuerpo de mossos
evidentemente no iba a quebrar nunca con la legalidad y la
Constitución, que no acompañábamos el proyecto
independentista...
|
Trapero:
the referendum, we go there as the police chiefs and call for
compliance with the court orders. We told them that we were
obviously going to comply, that they had got us wrong. We told
them that the body of Mossos evidently was not going to break with
legality and the Constitution, that we were not accompanying the
pro-independence project...
|
| DS: El segon en la cadena de comandament dels Mossos, Ferran López, també va participar a les reunions amb el govern on van advertir del risc de violència... |
DS: The second in command of the Mossos, Ferran
López, also took part in the meetings with the Government, where
they warned of the risk of violence...
|
| TALL 11:08-11:23 |
CUT 11:08-11:23
|
López:
Si que recuerdo que el Sr. Puigdemont dijo que si se producía
este escenario que nosotros preveíamos en ese mismo momento
declaraba la independencia.
|
López:
Yes, I remember that Mr. Puigdemont said that if the scenario that
we envisaged occurred, at that very moment independence would be
declared.
|
Fiscal:
¿Así lo dijo?
|
Prosecutor:
He said it like that?
|
López:
Si, lo recuerdo perfectamente. Creo que es una frase que todos
recordamos perfectamente porque es difícil de olvidar.
|
López:
Yes, I remember it perfectly. I think it's a sentence we all
remember perfectly because it's hard to forget.
|
| DG: El tribunal podria tenir en compte també que Ferran López va ser el representant dels Mossos, tant en la coordinació de l'1 d'octubre com en l'aplicació del 155, encara que el màxim responsable d'interior, Juan Ignacio Zoido, ni ho sabia... |
DG: The court could also take into account that
Ferran López was the representative of the Mossos, both in the
coordination of October 1 and in the application of 155, although
the head of the Interior, Juan Ignacio Zoido , I did not know...
|
| TALL 11:35-12:02 |
CUT 11:35-12:02
|
Defensa:
¿Sabía Vd. que el Sr. Ferran López era el comisario designado
por el mayor Trapero para asistir en su nombre a las reuniones de
coordinación con el coronel Pérez de los Cobos?
|
Defence:
Did you know that Mr. Ferran López was the officer appointed by
Major Trapero to attend, on his behalf, the coordination meetings
with Colonel Pérez de los Cobos?
|
Zoido:
Lo ignoro.
|
Zoido:
I don’t know.
|
Defensa:
¿Y el hecho de que coincidiera el representante máximo designado
por la administración desleal con el nuevo jefe operativo
designado por usted no le produce sorpresa?
|
Defence:
And did the fact that the top representative appointed by the
disloyal administration coincided with the new chief operational
officer you had appointed not surprise you?
|
Zoido:
Yo... ignoro quién fue el que aprobó
el dispositivo de los Mossos d'Esquadra.
|
Zoido:
I... I don’t know who it was that approved the Mossos
d'Esquadra’s operation.
|
| Justament, l'interrogant sobre qui va decidir l'actuació dels Mossos per a l'1 d'octubre ha estat un dels nusos en aquest procés que, moltes vegades, semblava ser un judici als Mossos. |
Indeed, the question about who decided the action
of the Mossos for October 1 has been one of the key issues in this
trial that often seemed to be putting the Mossos in the dock.
|
| DS: Tant és així que Xavier Melero, l'advocat de l'exconseller d'Interior Joaquim Forn, va demanar al tribunal un cara a cara entre el comissari Ferran López i el coordinador de les policies l'1 d'octubre, el coronel Diego Pérez de los Cobos. La Sala no l'ha autoritzat i la defensa s'ha quedat sense poder posar en evidència contradiccions com aquesta... |
DS: So much so that Xavier Melero, former
[Catalan] interior minister Joaquim Forn’s counsel, asked the
court for a confrontation between Commissioner Ferran López and
the police coordinator on October 1, Colonel Diego Pérez de los
Cobos. The Chamber has not authorized it and the defence has been
left unable to highlight contradictions such as this...
|
| TALL 12:32-13:01 |
CUT 12:32-13:01
|
Pérez
de los Cobos: Ese plan de actuación no parece el apropiado para
impedir un referéndum sino que parece más encaminado a un
dispositivo policial de unas elecciones normales y no de un
referéndum prohibido que hay que impedir.
|
Pérez
de los Cobos: This plan of action does not seem appropriate to
prevent a referendum, but seems rather aimed more at a police
operation of a normal election than of a banned referendum that
has to be prevented.
|
López:
Pérez de los Cobos validó el dispositivo del día 1 de octubre.
Validó que fuesen una dotación de Mossos d'Esquadra en cada
punto de votación. Validó el dispositivo y diseñó la
estructura de la coordinación del dispositivo.
|
López:
Pérez de los Cobos validated the device on October 1. He
validated that they there would be a couple of Mossos d'Esquadra
at each voting point. He validated the operation and designed the
structure of the coordination of the operation.
|
| DG: Dues versions per a una realitat. Algú menteix deia Melero quan observava aquestes divergències de testimonis. I aquesta impressió es repetiria quan la sala va escoltar els guàrdies civils i els policies espanyols que van actuar l'1 d'octubre... |
DG: Two versions of a single reality. Someone’s
lying, said Melero when he observed these divergences of
witnesses. And this impression was to be repeated when the room
heard the civil guards and the Spanish police officers who acted
on October 1...
|
| TALL 13:14-13:40 |
CUT 13:14-13:40
|
Vi
por primera vez en mi vida professional el reflejo del odio, lo vi
en la cara de la gente aquella / Las caras de odio, las caras de
desprecio ante los agentes de la autoridad / Era digno de ver la
cara de odio con los que nos miraba. Yo llevo 25 años en la
guardia civil, muchos de ellos pasados en el País Vasco, y lo que
pude percibir en esa persona nunca lo he percibido / Ver ese odio
en esa gente y máxime en nosotros que tuvimos una intervención
muy liviana, muy humana.
|
I
saw for the first time in my professional life the reflection of
hatred, I saw it in the faces of those people / The faces of
hatred, the faces of contempt before the agents of authority / It
was worthy to see the faces of hatred with which they looked at
us. I have been in the Civil Guard for 25 years , many of them
spent in the Basque Country, and I have never perceived what I
managed to perceive in that person / To see that hatred in those
people and especially towards us, whose intervention was very
gentle, very human.
|
| DS: Aquí tampoc es va poder confrontar el relat amb la prova que més clarament podia evidenciar contradiccions o falsedats: els vídeos, els famosos vídeos! El contrast només arribaria amb el testimoni dels que van anar a votar... |
DS: The narrative could not be confronted here,
either, with the evidence that could most clearly reveal
contradictions or falsehoods: the videos, the famous videos! The
contrast was only to come with the testimony of those who went to
vote...
|
| TALL 13:53-14:20 |
CUT 13:53-14:20
|
Vi
como cogían la gente por el pelo, como la tiraban por el suelo,
uno que recibe alguna patada / Vimos la policía, como estaba
arrastrando y pegando a la gente, intentando sacar de allí...
Incluso vi como un policía levantó la porra a una abuelita que
estaba sentada en una silla / Me acuerdo perfectamente del ruido
de las porras cuando abrían la cabeza / Un policía nacional me
estrelló en el suelo, me había fracturado el ala derecha del
pelvis entera, de arriba a abajo.
|
I
saw how they grabbed people by the hair, how they threw them on
the ground, one or more that get kicked / We saw how the police
dragged and hit people, trying to get them outside... I even saw
how a policeman raised his baton to an old lady who was sitting in
a chair / I remember perfectly the sound of truncheons as they
opened people’s heads / A national policeman threw me to the
ground, he had broken the entire right side of my pelvis, from top
to bottom.
|
| I els magistrats han hagut de sentir una i altra vegada perquè aquesta resistència, perquè aquesta actitud. Els ho va dir David Fernández, l'exdiputat de la CUP: "Ho farem i ho tornaríem a fer". |
And the magistrates have had to hear over and over
again the reason for this resistance, the reason for this
attitude. They were told by David Fernández, the former CUP MP:
"We shall do it and we shall do it again."
|
| TALL: 14:31-14:50 |
CUT 14:31-14:50
|
La
desobedecí a conciencia, y la
desobedecí también anteriormente el 9
de noviembre de 2014 cuando también hubo
prohibiciones, yo no sólo yo, creo que
2,3 millones de personas desobedecimos
aquella resolución del Tribunal Constitucional, porque si la
autodeterminación es el
delito me declaro abiertamente culpable
y reincidente.
|
Fernàndez: I
disobeyed it deliberately, and I also disobeyed it previously on
November 9, 2014 when there were also prohibitions, not only me, I
believe that 2.3 million people disobeyed that resolution of the
Constitutional Court, because if self-determination is the crime I
openly admit I am guilty and a recidivist.
|
| Les picabaralles entre els advocats defensors i el president de la sala, Manuel Marchena, han estat una constant al llarg d’aquest judici. |
There have been constant quarrels between the
defence lawyers and the president of the Chamber, Manuel Marchena,
throughout this trial.
|
| DG: Una de destacada va ser aquesta, quan l'advocat Benet Salellas interrogava la filòsofa Marina Garcés. Atenció a com Marchena posava fi a la discussió... |
DG: An outstanding one was this one, when lawyer
Benet Salellas interrogated philosopher Marina Garcés. Listen to
how Marchena put an end to the wrangle...
|
| TALL 15:07-15:41 |
CUT 15:07-15:41
|
Garcés:
Yo, el uno de octubre, aluciné...
|
Garcés:
I, on October 1, hallucinated...
|
Marchena:
Vamos a ver. Usted no viene aquí para explicar al tribunal su
grado de alucinación, su estado febril... Viene aquí
exclusivamente, a explicar que fue lo que pasó.
|
Marchena:
Let's see. You have not come here to explain to the Court your
level of hallucination, your feverish state... You come here
exclusively to explain what happened.
|
Defensa:
Únicamente dejar constancia que las percepciones de los testigos
del uno de octubre cuando fueron agentes…
|
Defence:
I just want it put on record that the perceptions of the witnesses
of October 1 when they were police officers...
|
Marchena:
No,...
|
Marchena:
No...
|
… Defensa: Los acepto… Protesta por la forma en que el
Tribunal…
|
... Defence: I accept them... I protest about the way the
Court...
|
… Marchena: Sí, Pero una cosa son las percepciones
sensoriales y otra cosa es emotivas acerca de la alucinación...
|
... Marchena: Yes, But sensory perceptions are one thing and
another thing are emotional perceptions about hallucinations...
|
… Defensa: .. sí fueron pertinentes, Señoría...
|
... Defence: Yes they were relevant, Your Honour...
|
Marchena:
Mire, en cualquier caso formule otra pregunta, Sr. Salellas.
|
Marchena:
Look, whatever the case may be, ask another question, Mr.
Salellas.
|
Defensa:
No voy a formular más preguntas.
|
Defence:
I will not ask any more questions.
|
Marchena:
Correcto. Mucho mejor.
|
Marchena:
Right. Much better.
|
| Aquesta és una de les intervencions més polèmiques de Manuel Marchena, perquè ho heu sentit abans com quan abans parlaven de «las caras del odio» dels policies, aquí no hi va haver interrupcions per part de Marchena, i en canvi, en aquesta ocasió sí. |
This is one of the most controversial
interventions of Manuel Marchena, because you already heard before
as the police talked about "the faces of hatred", there
were no interruptions on the part of Marchena then, but on this
occasion there was.
|
| La decisió del tribunal de NO contraposar les declaracions dels testimonis amb les imatges dels vídeos també ha generat conflictes de manera permanent amb les defenses. |
The court's decision NOT to counter witness
statements with video images has also generated conflicts on a
permanent basis with the defence counsels.
|
| DS: Els famosos vídeos del 20 de setembre i de l'1 d'octubre només es van poder veure en la fase documental, quan ja havien acabat els testimonis policials i els dels ciutadans que van defensar les urnes. |
DS: The famous September 20 and October 1 videos
were only seen in the documentary phase, when the police witnesses
and those of the citizens who defended the ballot boxes had
already finished.
|
| DG: Això va impedir remarcar les contradiccions que els defensors detectaven en el relat dels agents espanyols. És el que li va passar en aquesta ocasió a l'advocat Jordi Pina que, com la resta dels seus companys, interrogava mentre veia en el seu portàtil els vídeos que el tribunal no permetia projectar... |
DG: This prevented to emphasize the contradictions
that the defenders detected in the story of the Spanish agents.
This is what happened to the lawyer Jordi Pina on this occasion,
who, like the rest of his colleagues, questioned while watching in
his laptop the videos that the court did not allow to project...
|
| TALL 16:24-17:02 |
CUT 16:24-17:02
|
Defensa:
¿Vd. sabe si se puso una persona con las manos delante para
dialogar y la fuerza actuante lo arremetió, cayó esta persona al
suelo y continuaron la marcha sin hacerle caso a esta persona?
Mire voy a ser más preciso: que lo estoy viendo!
|
Defence:
Do you know if a person with his hands in front of him stood
forward to talk and the acting force attacked him, this person
fell to the ground and they continued their march without paying
attention to this person? Look, I'll be more precise: I'm seeing
it [on the screen]!
|
Testimoni:
No sé qué imagen...
|
Witness:
I do not know what image...
|
Marchena:
Señor Pina...
|
Marchena:
Mr. Pina...
|
Defensa:
Claro, es que...
|
Defence:
Sure, the thing is that...
|
Marchena:
A ver, por favor...
|
Marchena:
Let's see, please...
|
Defensa:
Pues me da igual, lo dejo, lo dejo..
|
Defence:
Well I don’t mind, I’ll drop it, I’ll drop it...
|
Marchena:
Lo que podemos hacer es que testifique usted en lugar del testigo
si le parece. Esto no es serio Sr. Pina. Vd. normalmente se
comporta como un letrado serio, pero en este momento no se ha
comportado como un letrado serio.
|
Marchena:
What we can do is that you testify instead of the witness if you
think so. This is not serious Mr. Pina. You usually behave like a
serious lawyer, but at this moment you have not behaved like a
serious lawyer.
|
Defensa:
Sí, tiene Vd. razón, pero Señoría...
|
Defence:
Yes, you are right, but Your Honour...
|
Marchena:
Ya está, ya está. Si le digo ya está ya está ves. Como tengo
razón mejor lo dejamos y hace otra pregunta.
|
Marchena:
That's it, that's it. If I tell you, that’s that, then that’s
that. As I'm right, let’s leave it at that and ask another
question.
|
Defensa:
Le iba a dar una explicación...
|
Defence:
I was going to give you an explanation...
|
Marchena:
No me tiene que dar explicaciones porque igual las explicaciones
agravan su actitud...
|
Marchena:
You do not have to give me any explanations because your
explanations might make things worse...
|
| DS: Sonada també aquesta enganxada de Marchena amb l'advocada Marina Roig... |
DS: This verbal scuffle between Marchena and
lawyer Marina Roig also hit the headlines...
|
| TALL 17:07-17:34 |
CUT 17:07-17:34
|
Defensa: Con respecto al Pacto Nacional pel Referèndum, ¿cuál
fue el papel del sindicato?
|
Defence:
With respect to the National Pact for the Referendum, what was the
role of the union?
|
Pacheco:
Participamos en las...
|
Pacheco:
We took
part
in the...
|
Marchena:
Vamos a ver doña Marina. ¿Vd cree que tiene trascendencia
jurídica en los hechos el papel relevante que haya tenido
Comissiones Obreras en el tratamiento de estos hechos? No tiene
ninguna trascendencia! Yerra Vd. en la estraegia defensiva. Y no
sécomo decírselo más claro.
|
Marchena:
Let's see, Doña Marina. Do you think that the important role that
this trade union may have had in the treatment of these events has
any legal bearing on these facts? It has no significance! You're
err in your defensive strategy. And I do not know how to tell you
more clearly.
|
Defensa: Es
que si no puedo pedir por el contenido de un documento,
sinceramente, es que no entiendo cómo puedo defender a mi
cliente.
|
Defence:
If I can not ask about the content of a document, honestly, I do
not understand how I can defend my client.
|
Marchena: Si
no entiende, tiene un problema.
|
Marchena:
If you do not understand, you have a problem.
|
| DG: Marchena en estat pur. Tensions, retrets, queixes, protestes i, fins i tot, algun comentari gens imparcial d'un dels magistrats que va passar desapercebut per a la sala, però no per a l'advocat Andreu Van Den Eynde, que va necessitar respirar a fons i tot seguit mossegar-se la llengua per continuar endavant... |
DG: Marchena in pure state. Tensions, complaints,
reproaches, protests and even some far from impartial remark by
one of the judges that went unnoticed by the Chamber, but not by
Andreu Van Den Eynde, who had to take a deep to breath and then
bite his tongue to be able to carry on...
|
| TALL 17:50-18:12 |
CUT 17:50-18:12
|
Marchena:
¿Tiene más preguntas, Sr. letrado? Sr. letrado...
|
Marchena:
Do you have any more questions, Mr. lawyer? Mr. lawyer...
|
Defensa: Sí.
Estoy pensando.
|
Defence:
Yes. I'm thinking.
|
Marchena:
¿Qué está pensando? ¿La pregunta que va a hacerle?
|
Marchena:
What are you thinking? The question you are going to ask him?
|
Defensa: No
|
Defence:
No
|
Marchena: La
trae pensada de casa. Pero bueno... ¿Va a formular otra pregunta?
|
Marchena:
You’ve brought it from home. But hey... Are you going to ask
another question?
|
Defensa: Sí.
|
Defence:
Yes
|
Marchena:
Adelante.
|
Marchena:
Go ahead.
|
Defensa:
Quiero recobrar un poco la serenidad para poder ejercer bien la
función de defensa.
|
Defence:
I want to recover a little my serenity to be able to exercise well
the function as counsel.
|
Marchena:
Adelante. Recobre la serenidad y formule una pregunta.
|
Marchena:
Go ahead. Regain your serenity and ask a question.
|
| Advocats al marge, també cal recordar les topades que s'han donat entre Marchena i els diversos testimonis que han sol·licitat poder declarar en català. |
Leaving aside the lawyers, the confrontations
between Marchena and the various witnesses who requested to
testify in Catalan are also worth recalling.
|
| DS: La resposta del magistrat sempre ha estat la mateixa... |
DS: The judge's response was always the same...
|
| TALL 18:25-18:36 |
CUT 18:25-18:36
|
Marchena:
Vd. va a contestar en castellano. Si
no quiere contestar en castellano, esto es muy
sencillo: Vd. se
levanta, asume las consecuencias legales de su negativa a
contestar, y hemos terminado.
|
Marchena:
You are going to answer in Spanish. If you do not want to answer
in Spanish, it’s very straightforward: you get up, assume the
legal consequences of your refusal to answer, and we’ve
finished.
|
| DG: Això sí, deia Marchena: «Des del respecte al català». Marchena s'ha esforçat a quadrar el judici pel que fa a les formes i els tempos, ara queda la valoració del contingut de tot el que s'ha vist i sentit aquests quatre mesos. |
DG: To be sure, Marchena did say: "Out of
respect for Catalan". Marchena has strived to manage the
trial as regards the formalities and the tempo, and now what
remains is the assessment of the content of all that has been seen
and heard in the last four months.
|
| DS: Demà i dimecres, les defenses li donaran la seva versió definitiva i, després, els dotze acusats tindran l'última paraula abans que Marchena declari ja el judici vist per a sentència. |
DS: Tomorrow and Wednesday, the defence counsels
will give the court their definitive version, and then the twelve
defendants will make their last plea before Marchena announces
that the trial is adjourned for judgment.
|
| DG: Com ja va passar a l'inici de la vista oral, tornarem a escoltar les veus d'Oriol Junqueras, Joaquim Forn, Jordi Turull, Raül Romeva, Josep Rull, Dolors Bassa, Carles Mundó, Meritxell Borràs, Santi Vila, Jordi Sànchez, Jordi Cuixart i Carme Forcadell. |
DG: As previously happened at the beginning of the
oral hearing, we will hear the voices of Oriol Junqueras, Joaquim
Forn, Jordi Turull, Raül Romeva, Josep Rull, Dolors Bassa, Carles
Mundó, Meritxell Borràs, Santi Vila, Jordi Sánchez, Jordi
Cuixart and Carme Forcadell.
|
| Ells i elles recordaran els seus arguments al tribunal... |
They will remind the court of their arguments...
|
| TALL 19:11-21:08 |
CUT 19:11-21:08
|
Junqueras: La silla que hay enfrente SIEMPRE está vacía, y
traslada su responsabilidad política a los tribunales. La mayoría
independentista…
|
Junqueras: The chair across the table is ALWAYS empty, and
transfers its political responsibility to the courts. The
pro-independence majority...
|
Forn: No hay ninguna instrucción política por parte del
Consejero de Interior ni por parte del presidente de la
Generalitat ni por parte de ningún miembro del gobierno que se le
pida al agente que incumpla con las funciones de policía judicial
de Cataluña…
|
Forn: No political instruction was given by the Catalan Minister
of the Interior, by the President of the Generalitat or by any
member of the government to call on police officers not to comply
with their functions as court police of Catalonia...
|
Turull: Los ciudadanos de Cataluña no son ovejas, gente que está
militarizada y se les dice “aquí, allí”, No, no es esto. La
gente en Cataluña se independiza…
|
Turull: The citizens of Catalonia are not sheep, people who are
militarizedand are told “Go this way, go that way”. No, that’s
not it. People in Catalonia are becoming independent...
|
Romeva: La clave de nuestras intenciones tiene que ver con el
principio democrático y…
|
Romeva: The key to our intentions has to do with the democratic
principle and...
|
Rull: Yo creo que el Tribunal Constitución española tiene un
déficit importante de autoridad moral…
|
Rull: I believe that the Spanish Constitution Court has a
significant deficit of moral authority...
|
Bassa: Lo que puedo decirles es que no se realizó ningún gasto a
partir del 7, el día que se suspende la ley. Antes no lo sé
porque no controlo todo los departamentos.
|
Bassa: What I can tell you is that no expense
was made after the 7th,
the day the law was suspended. I do not know about
beforehand, because I do not control all
the departments.
|
Mundó: En el ámbito de mis competencias no realizar ninguna
acción o resolución o acción tendente a realizar aquello que se
me decía de no realizar.
|
Mundó: Within the scope of my competences, I
did not take any action or
resolution, or
any action to
do what I was being told
not to do.
|
Borràs: No le voy a quitar valor, porque yo lo firmé, pero las
firmas necesarias para un decreto, son las del Presidente y las
del Consejero o Consejera que son de la materia.
|
Borràs: I'm not going to reduce
its importance, for I did
sign it, but the signatures needed for a
decree are that
of the President and that
of the Minister
with powers in the field.
|
Vila: Lo que ha pasado en Cataluña es impropio de una sociedad
avanzada y moderna como la catalana, y teníamos que haber hecho
las cosas de forma muy distinta.
|
Vila: What happened in Catalonia is improper
for an advanced and modern society like
the Catalan one, and we should
have done things in a very different way.
|
Sánchez: Estábamos ejercitando el legítimo derecho de
expresión, de manifestación, de reunión, y de exigencia de un
derecho político como el derecho de la autodeterminación y la
independencia de Cataluña.
|
Sánchez: We were exercising the legitimate
right of expression, of demonstration, of assembly,
and of demanding a political right such as the right of
self-determination and the
independence of Catalonia.
|
Cuixart: La parte bonita de todo esto es que dos millones
trescientas mil personas en un rincón de Europa se solidarizan
los unos con los otros, se organizan de manera transversal de
abajo hacia arriba para participar de un referéndum, de una cosa
tan poco delictiva como un referéndum…
|
Cuixart: The lovely
part of all this is that two million three hundred thousand people
in a corner of Europe stood
in solidarity with one another, organized
themselves transversely from the bottom up to take
part in a referendum, something
as little criminal as a referendum...
|
Forcadell: Lo que nos pedía el Tribunal Constitucional
entendíamos que era convertir la Mesa en un órgano censor,
quería que hiciésemos una cosa que el Parlament no podía hacer,
no podíamos censurar el debate...
|
Forcadell: What the Constitutional Court asked
us to do was to turn the Bureau into a censoring body, it
wanted us to do something that the Parliament could not do, we
could not censor the debate...
|
| El 16 d’octubre què passarà? Doncs que més val que hi hagi sentència, perquè es compliran dos anys de presó preventiva de Jordi Cuixart i Jordi Sànchez. I si els han de mantenir a la presó, hauria de prorrogar aquesta presó preventiva -ja veuríem amb quins arguments-, durant dos anys. | What will happen on October 16? Well, there had better be a verdict, because on that day Jordi Cuixart and Jordi Sànchez will have been in detention for two years. And if they are to be kept in prison, their preventive detention will have to extended - we would see on what grounds - for two more years. |
Veurem si mentre la sala
delibera els deixa en llibertat a ells i a tots els altres 7
presos i preses repartits entre els centres penitenciaris
madrilenys de Soto del Real i Alcalà Meco. Demà escoltarem en
directe aquestes defenses...
|
We shall
see if, while the court deliberates, it
will free them and the
other 7 prisoners held in
the Madrid and penitentiary centres
of Soto del
Real and Alcalá
Meco. Tomorrow we will listen to
their defence
counsels live...
|
© Corporació Catalana de
Mitjans Audiovisuals, SA
|
...ooo000ooo...
Last Christmas few dared to make predictions of how long it could
last but we have reached the end: the last episode of the trial in
the Supreme Court of the independence process of Autumn 2017 begins
tomorrow, although for the sentence we will still have to wait until
this autumn... It is a historical judgment, undoubtedly the most
important of the Spanish democracy.
A few days ago, lawyer Andreu Van den Eynde recognized that the
president of the chamber, Manuel Marchena, had led the tempo with an
iron fist, although on the way - he added - the defendants had lost
some of their rights.
Dani Gómez, Domènec Subirà, good morning! In four months, from
March 12 until now, Marchena has completed the whole of the oral
proceedings...
DG: Yes, he has gone through the testimonial tests - the witnesses -,
the experts and the documentaries, with the controversial exhibition
of the October 1 videos.
DS: Last week, the prosecution - the prosecutor's office, the state
lawyers’ office and the “popular prosecutor”, the extreme right
party Vox -, presented their final reports with the arguments to
uphold the charges against the twelve people in charge.
Tomorrow we return to Madrid because it will be the defence counsels’
turn to expound on their definitive arguments, with a request for
acquittal included. And then the defendants will have the opportunity
to make their final plea. There are two scheduled sessions: tomorrow
Tuesday, and Wednesday, and if necessary, Thursday would also be
added.
That is why today it seems timely to SUMMARISE these four months, the
moments, the images, the highlights of what has been said since
February...
DG: The testifical phase, the witnesses, began with the appearance of
the main government actors. And with them the main controversy in the
political key: how far could dialogue be reached and where did the
unilateral journey begin? Versions of Rt. Hon. Artur Mas and [former
deputy primer minister] Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría before the
Supreme Court...
CUT 2:20-2:53
Mas: I always heard the willingness to reach agreement on the terms
of this referendum with the Spanish Government. Always. I also heard
it in public statements by President Puigdemont when he visited prime
minister Rajoy in the Moncloa [palace, in Madrid] and offered to
reach agreement on the date of the question and the conditions before
and after the referendum.
Sáenz de Santamaría: The Government of the Nation cannot play
around with the sovereignty and the unity of the national territory.
Neither with Mr. Junqueras nor with anyone can I talk about calling a
referendum of self-determination in our country.
DS: But beyond the official positions, a question mark surrounding
the trial was what contacts there had been behind the scenes in the
summer and autumn of 2017, and even in the days before the
declaration of independence. And here Lehendakari [Basque president]
Iñigo Urkullu, who acted as mediator, had one recollection, and
[primer minister] Mariano Rajoy had another...
CUT 3:10-3:55
Defence: Did you personally meet Sr. Urkullu?
Rajoy: Well, I do not know if... of course, and while we are on the
subject, Sr. Ortuza also called me. Maybe I did speak with Mr.
Urkullu personally.
Defence: Mr. Rajoy, I do not want to put you in a fix.
Jutge Marchena: It's very simple...
Mr. Rajoy: That is, there was no kind of mediator of any sort. Many
people called me, but of course you have to understand that it is
very difficult to remember if I spoke to them personally, on the
phone or through messages.
Mr. Urkullu: I had the meeting with the Spanish Prime Minister on
July 19 for a space of two hours. Prior to that, the Spanish prime
minister contacted me to set the possible agenda. From that moment on
there were many conversations, many communications with various
people...
DG: Asked about the content of the talks with the Basque president,
nor did Rajoy give many details...
CUT 4:01-4:08
Rajoy: The most important proposal I made was to stop violating the
Constitution. This was the most important proposal.
DS: Note, however, the perceptions that Urkullu had in those days of
October...
CUT 4:13-4:33
Urkullu: I had my intuition of what the disposition of the president
of the Spanish Government, would be, for he really was not keen on
the application of Article 155.
Prosecution: What was Mr. Puigdemont's response?
Urkullu: In no way at all did he wish to proceed with the unilateral
declaration of independence.
The charge of rebellion bases its arguments on the convergence of
four actors: the Parliament, the Generalitat, the Mossos d'Esquadra
and the social organizations.
DG: The government is also accused of embezzlement. And here
ex-minister Cristóbal Montoro was one of the most eagerly expected
witnesses...
CUT 4:50-4:56
Montoro: All the funds were controlled, to the point that we replaced
the autonomous administration itself.
DS: It was not the first time that this statement was made this
strongly. But this time the prosecutor prized out a nuance:
CUT 5:03-5:14
Montoro: The convening authority did not have a budget.
Fiscal: Does this exclude the possibility of irregular actions for
the funding of the referendum, or deceptive ones, or fraudulent ones?
Montoro: No, we can never rule that out.
The discussion about the accuracy and legality of the facts has
evidently been one of the cornerstones of the trial, and some of the
defence counsels and part of the testimonies concentrated on this.
DG: The current Speaker of the Parliament, Roger Torrent, for
example, defended the action of his predecessor, Carme Forcadell...
CUT 5:29-5:47
Roger Torrent: There are no proposals by parliamentary groups that
can be censored. We have never censored, none of the Speakers who
have preceded me you have ever censored them, and in particular
Speaker Forcadell never censored them; in fact, had I been in her
place, I would have done exactly the same thing.
DS: But another strategy that has also stuck out is that of
vindicating the rights of the defendants and of the population they
represented. The debate of legitimacy versus legality. Here fits,
among others, the testimony of [Barcelona mayor] Ada Colau, who, as
she herself made clear, starts with the discrepancy with the
independence movement...
CUT 6:02-6:15
Ada Colau: It breaks my heart, Your Honour, to see that Mr. Cuixart
is here today in pretrial detention like the rest of the defendants,
with whom I may have political disagreements, but if for October 1 we
are here, there should be millions of people in the dock.
DG: And yet another claim, this one on the trial itself. The defence
had called for the participation of the far right Vox party in the
trial to be vetoed, but they did not get they way. Former CUP MPs
Antonio Baños and Eulàlia Reguant were more expeditious when it was
their turn to testify...
CUT 6:31-6:51
Baños: If you allow me, Your Honour, I will refuse to answer...
Marchena: No, you can’t.
Baños: Yes, yes I can.
Marchena: No...
Baños: Well, I don't intend to answer the questions they ask me...
Marchena: No, no, listen, listen, listen to me.
Reguant: In front of the extreme right, in front of a sexist and
xenophobic party, I will not accept to answer the questions, and I
accept the consequences.
As a result of this contempt of court, the Supreme Court issued a
2,500 euros fine which, to date, has not been paid.
Let us move on to the witnesses on violence, no doubt the bulk of the
trial and what has taken up most time and most controversy. The
scenarios most analyzed during these four months were the one of the
concentration on September 20thoutside the Ministry of Economy and
the one on October 1st at the polling stations throughout the
country.
DS: With regard to October 1, a prominent testimony that corroborated
the story of the prosecution was that of the former delegate of the
[Spanish] Government in Catalonia in autumn 2017, Enric Millo,
especially with an example that went viral...
CUT 7:25-7:37
Millo: An agent explained to me that he had fallen into the Fairy
trap. I asked what was that, you know? It involved pouring detergent
at the entrance of some schools so that, when the police entered,
they slipped, fell to the ground and then their heads got kicked.
DG: As to September 20, one of the most controversial testimonies of
the prosecution was been that of Montserrat del Toro, the court
secretary of Barcelona Court No. 13, who on that day led the search
party in the Department of Economy, surrounded by thousands of
people...
CUT 7:52-8:08
Del Toro: I had evidently, as a person, as a human being, to watch
over my physical integrity because I was really afraid and it was
also my professional obligation to make sure that the fruit of the
work of 17 hours of searches was not lost or forgotten...
DS: The fear she mentions, or her departure across a Department
terrace, spilled a lot of ink, at least as the description of why
this happened in Catalonia that autumn...
CUT 8:19-8:42
Baena: We got into a climate that we could qualify by objectives, in
a climate that we could qualify by the number of actions, in a
climate that we could qualify by abstention, where they were
happening, as clearly insurrectional. It was literally a powder keg.
Those days we knew that in that situation any small incident could
lead to an uncontrollable escalation... and fortunately that did not
happen.
This was the Civil Guard Colonel, José Daniel Baena, chief of the
body's court agents in Catalonia, with an explanation that provided
comprehensive coverage and justification to all police action, aware
of the criticism they had generated.
DS: Baena, who is being investigated for his criticisms and insults
in the social networks against independence supporters and
journalists, insisted on describing a climate, a term that prosecutor
Jaime Moreno took on afterwards when he showed the videos of alleged
violence, with images that, incidentally, he could not locate
geographically...
CUT 9:15-9:25
Moreno: You are asking the prosecutor for an identification that does
not add anything. In any case what is being pointed out is that it
was a climate in all the schools in all the places.
DG: The reports on the events of that autumn written by Colonel Baena
for Investigating Court No. 13 are those on which the investigation
of the Supreme Court was based. Consistent with this line, former
Interior Minister Juan Ignacio Zoido testified before the Supreme
Court...
CUT 9:39-9:50
Zoido: I do not agree that they acted excessively. I think it was a
proportionate action given the circumstances that concurred on that,
on that day.
The insurrectionist climate is one of the arguments of the
prosecution to justify the action of the Spanish security forces. The
other is the passivity of the Mossos d'Esquadra, an instrument at the
service of the rebellion according to the prosecutors.
DS: The thesis was proposed by the public prosecutor in his
provisional conclusions and was kept in the final conclusions, after
four months of trial, almost 500 testimonials and having seen a dozen
hours of videos.
DG: The Court now has to evaluate explanations such as that of the
then head of the Mossos, Josep Lluís Trapero, personally asked by
Manuel Marchena about their purported submission to the
pro-independence government...
CUT 10:30-10:59
Marchena: Mr. Trapero, before you leave, exactly what message did you
want to convey to those political leaders and what answer did you
get?
Trapero: the referendum, we go there as the police chiefs and call
for compliance with the court orders. We told them that we were
obviously going to comply, that they had got us wrong. We told them
that the body of Mossos evidently was not going to break with
legality and the Constitution, that we were not accompanying the
pro-independence project...
DS: The second in command of the Mossos, Ferran López, also took
part in the meetings with the Government, where they warned of the
risk of violence...
CUT 11:08-11:23
López: Yes, I remember that Mr. Puigdemont said that if the scenario
that we envisaged occurred, at that very moment independence would be
declared.
Prosecutor: He said it like that?
López: Yes, I remember it perfectly. I think it's a sentence we all
remember perfectly because it's hard to forget.
DG: The court could also take into account that Ferran López was the
representative of the Mossos, both in the coordination of October 1
and in the application of 155, although the head of the Interior,
Juan Ignacio Zoido , I did not know...
CUT 11:35-12:02
Defence: Did you know that Mr. Ferran López was the officer
appointed by Major Trapero to attend, on his behalf, the coordination
meetings with Colonel Pérez de los Cobos?
Zoido: I don’t know.
Defence: And did the fact that the top representative appointed by
the disloyal administration coincided with the new chief operational
officer you had appointed not surprise you?
Zoido: I... I don’t know who it was that approved the Mossos
d'Esquadra’s operation.
Indeed, the question about who decided the action of the Mossos for
October 1 has been one of the key issues in this trial that often
seemed to be putting the Mossos in the dock.
DS: So much so that Xavier Melero, former [Catalan] interior minister
Joaquim Forn’s counsel, asked the court for a confrontation between
Commissioner Ferran López and the police coordinator on October 1,
Colonel Diego Pérez de los Cobos. The Chamber has not authorized it
and the defence has been left unable to highlight contradictions such
as this...
CUT 12:32-13:01
Pérez de los Cobos: This plan of action does not seem appropriate to
prevent a referendum, but seems rather aimed more at a police
operation of a normal election than of a banned referendum that has
to be prevented.
López: Pérez de los Cobos validated the device on October 1. He
validated that they there would be a couple of Mossos d'Esquadra at
each voting point. He validated the operation and designed the
structure of the coordination of the operation.
DG: Two versions of a single reality. Someone’s lying, said Melero
when he observed these divergences of witnesses. And this impression
was to be repeated when the room heard the civil guards and the
Spanish police officers who acted on October 1...
CUT 13:14-13:40
I saw for the first time in my professional life the reflection of
hatred, I saw it in the faces of those people / The faces of hatred,
the faces of contempt before the agents of authority / It was worthy
to see the faces of hatred with which they looked at us. I have been
in the Civil Guard for 25 years , many of them spent in the Basque
Country, and I have never perceived what I managed to perceive in
that person / To see that hatred in those people and especially
towards us, whose intervention was very gentle, very human.
DS: The narrative could not be confronted here, either, with the
evidence that could most clearly reveal contradictions or falsehoods:
the videos, the famous videos! The contrast was only to come with the
testimony of those who went to vote...
CUT 13:53-14:20
I saw how they grabbed people by the hair, how they threw them on the
ground, one or more that get kicked / We saw how the police dragged
and hit people, trying to get them outside... I even saw how a
policeman raised his baton to an old lady who was sitting in a chair
/ I remember perfectly the sound of truncheons as they opened
people’s heads / A national policeman threw me to the ground, he
had broken the entire right side of my pelvis, from top to bottom.
And the magistrates have had to hear over and over again the reason
for this resistance, the reason for this attitude. They were toldby
David Fernández, the former CUP MP: "We shall do it and we
shall do it again."
CUT 14:31-14:50
Fernàndez: I disobeyed it deliberately, and I also disobeyed it
previously on November 9, 2014 when there were also prohibitions, not
only me, I believe that 2.3 million people disobeyed that resolution
of the Constitutional Court, because if self-determination is the
crime I openly admit I am guilty and a recidivist.
There have been constant quarrels between the defence lawyers and the
president of the Chamber, Manuel Marchena, throughout this trial.
DG: An outstanding one was this one, when lawyer Benet Salellas
interrogated philosopher Marina Garcés. Listen to how Marchena put
an end to the wrangle...
CUT 15:07-15:41
Garcés: I, on October 1, hallucinated...
Marchena: Let's see. You have not come here to explain to the Court
your level of hallucination, your feverish state... You come here
exclusively to explain what happened.
Defence: I just want it put on record that the perceptions of the
witnesses of October 1 when they were police officers...
Marchena: No...
... Defence: I accept them... I protest about the way the Court...
... Marchena: Yes, But sensory perceptions are one thing and another
thing are emotional perceptions about hallucinations...
... Defence: Yes they were relevant, Your Honour...
Marchena: Look, whatever the case may be, ask another question, Mr.
Salellas.
Defence: I will not ask any more questions.
Marchena: Right. Much better.
This is one of the most controversial interventions of Manuel
Marchena, because you already heard before as the police talked about
"the faces of hatred", there were no interruptions on the
part of Marchena then, but on this occasion there was.
The court's decision NOT to counter witness statements with video
images has also generated conflicts on a permanent basis with the
defence counsels.
DS: The famous September 20 and October 1 videos were only seen in
the documentary phase, when the police witnesses and those of the
citizens who defended the ballot boxes had already finished.
DG: This prevented to emphasize the contradictions that the defenders
detected in the story of the Spanish agents. This is what happened to
the lawyer Jordi Pina on this occasion, who, like the rest of his
colleagues, questioned while watching in his laptop the videos that
the court did not allow to project...
CUT 16:24-17:02
Defence: Do you know if a person with his hands in front of him stood
forward to talk and the acting force attacked him, this person fell
to the ground and they continued their march without paying attention
to this person? Look, I'll be more precise: I'm seeing it [on the
screen]!
Witness: I do not know what image...
Marchena: Mr. Pina...
Defence: Sure, the thing is that...
Marchena: Let's see, please...
Defence: Well I don’t mind, I’ll drop it, I’ll drop it...
Marchena: What we can do is that you testify instead of the witness
if you think so. This is not serious Mr. Pina. You usually behave
like a serious lawyer, but at this moment you have not behaved like a
serious lawyer.
Defence: Yes, you are right, but Your Honour...
Marchena: That's it, that's it. If I tell you, that’s that, then
that’s that. As I'm right, let’s leave it at that and ask another
question.
Defence: I was going to give you an explanation...
Marchena: You do not have to give me any explanations because your
explanations might make things worse...
DS: This verbal scuffle between Marchena and lawyer Marina Roig also
hit the headlines...
CUT 17:07-17:34
Defence: With respect to the National Pact for the Referendum, what
was the role of the union?
Pacheco: We took part in the...
Marchena: Let's see, Doña Marina. Do you think that the important
role that this trade union may have had in the treatment of these
events has any legal bearing on these facts? It has no significance!
You're err in your defensive strategy. And I do not know how to tell
you more clearly.
Defence: If I can not ask about the content of a document, honestly,
I do not understand how I can defend my client.
Marchena: If you do not understand, you have a problem.
DG: Marchena in pure state. Tensions, complaints, reproaches,
protests and even some far from impartial remark by one of the judges
that went unnoticed by the Chamber, but not by Andreu Van Den Eynde,
who had to take a deep to breath and then bite his tongue to be able
to carry on...
CUT 17:50-18:12
Marchena: Do you have any more questions, Mr. lawyer? Mr. lawyer...
Defence: Yes. I'm thinking.
Marchena: What are you thinking? The question you are going to ask
him?
Defence: No
Marchena: You’ve brought it from home. But hey... Are you going to
ask another question?
Defence: Yes
Marchena: Go ahead.
Defence: I want to recover a little my serenity to be able to
exercise well the function as counsel.
Marchena: Go ahead. Regain your serenity and ask a question.
Leaving aside the lawyers, the confrontations between Marchena and
the various witnesses who requested to testify in Catalan are also
worth recalling.
DS: The judge's response was always the same...
CUT 18:25-18:36
Marchena: You are going to answer in Spanish. If you do not want to
answer in Spanish, it’s very straightforward: you get up, assume
the legal consequences of your refusal to answer, and we’ve
finished.
DG: To be sure, Marchena did say: "Out of respect for Catalan".
Marchena has strived to manage the trial as regards the formalities
and the tempo, and now what remains is the assessment of the content
of all that has been seen and heard in the last four months.
DS: Tomorrow and Wednesday, the defence counsels will give the court
their definitive version, and then the twelve defendants will make
their last plea before Marchena announces that the trial is adjourned
for judgment.
DG: As previously happened at the beginning of the oral hearing, we
will hear the voices of Oriol Junqueras, Joaquim Forn, Jordi Turull,
Raül Romeva, Josep Rull, Dolors Bassa, Carles Mundó, Meritxell
Borràs, Santi Vila, Jordi Sánchez, Jordi Cuixart and Carme
Forcadell.
They will remind the court of their arguments...
CUT 19:11-21:08
Junqueras: The chair across the table is ALWAYS empty, and transfers
its political responsibility to the courts. The pro-independence
majority...
Forn: No political instruction was given by the Catalan Minister of
the Interior, by the President of the Generalitat or by any member of
the government to call on police officers not to comply with their
functions as court police of Catalonia...
Turull: The citizens of Catalonia are not sheep, people who are
militarizedand are told “Go this way, go that way”. No, that’s
not it. People in Catalonia are becoming independent...
Romeva: The key to our intentions has to do with the democratic
principle and...
Rull: I believe that the Spanish Constitution Court has a significant
deficit of moral authority...
Bassa: What I can tell you is that no expense was made after the 7th,
the day the law was suspended. I do not know about beforehand,
because I do not control all the departments.
Mundó: Within the scope of my competences, I did not take any action
or resolution, or any action to do what I was being told not to do.
Borràs: I'm not going to reduce its importance, for I did sign it,
but the signatures needed for a decree are that of the President and
that of the Minister with powers in the field.
Vila: What happened in Catalonia is improper for an advanced and
modern society like the Catalan one, and we should have done things
in a very different way.
Sánchez: We were exercising the legitimate right of expression, of
demonstration, of assembly, and of demanding a political right such
as the right of self-determination and the independence of Catalonia.
Cuixart: The lovely part of all this is that two million three
hundred thousand people in a corner of Europe stood in solidarity
with one another, organized themselves transversely from the bottom
up to take part in a referendum, something as little criminal as a
referendum...
Forcadell: What the Constitutional Court asked us to do was to turn
the Bureau into a censoring body, it wanted us to do something that
the Parliament could not do, we could not censor the debate...
What will happen on October 16? Well, there had better be a verdict,
because on that day Jordi Cuixart and Jordi Sànchez will have been
in detention for two years. And if they are to be kept in prison,
their preventive detention will have to extended - we would see on
what grounds - for two more years.
We shall see if, while the court deliberates, it will free them and
the other 7 prisoners held in the Madrid and penitentiary centres of
Soto del Real and Alcalá Meco. Tomorrow we will listen to their
defence counsels live...
See also (Jordi Cuixart, English subtitles):
https://twitter.com/OmniumIntl/status/1138873465946169344?s=09
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